It would be nice...
Dec. 10th, 2004 12:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
naruki_oniif someone on UF would call on DesertRat66 to explain why he still quotes material from Rush Limbaugh to support his political points. Yeah, and if DR66 has the balls to respond, smack the hell out of him with this. That'd be nice.
It won't be the same doing it here, since he made his humanitarian appeal over there. Yeah, the same thing he is weeping for is being ridiculed by one of his icons. Still, his blind faith in conservativism won't let him see the evil.
Of course, I know it's not going to happen, because UF is emasculated. When someone posts something incredibly stupid, you aren't allowed to call them on it. It was such a great place once.
*sigh*
It won't be the same doing it here, since he made his humanitarian appeal over there. Yeah, the same thing he is weeping for is being ridiculed by one of his icons. Still, his blind faith in conservativism won't let him see the evil.
Of course, I know it's not going to happen, because UF is emasculated. When someone posts something incredibly stupid, you aren't allowed to call them on it. It was such a great place once.
*sigh*
You're welcome to your opinion, but...
Date: 2004-12-10 03:36 pm (UTC)People are still welcome to call others on the carpet for their stupidity. They just aren't allowed to be assholes when doing so. You know that, I believe, and as much as you apparently hate when others make false accusations based on non-facts, this is exactly what you appear to be doing.
*shrug* I know you aren't going to 'get it'. You didn't before. I just had hoped that you eventually would.
Kickstart
You flip-flopped.
Date: 2004-12-10 05:24 pm (UTC)But the board was weaker even when I was there. Over the years you've weeded out a lot of assholes, but you've fostered a few more of a different stripe (and that doesn't mean DR66, whom I consider a good person other than politically).
Since I wasn't really referring to the "care bear" posts, I guess you missed my point. Still, just for completeness, I should say that they have definitely increased in the last few years. But that's irrelevant, not to mention undeserving of the insult you proferred.
In recent weeks I've seen some of the stupidest posts go unchallenged. Whether that's because the smart people aren't there or because they're not willing to say what they think, I can't determine. Probably a combination of both.
The issue that caused you to suggest that I was being an asshole is really your own fault. You seem to think that having a unique standard for every single poster is reasonable. That's why you held me (and probably others) to a different standard than everyone else. You don't "get" that you have to hold everyone to the same standard.
I see you never commented in this entry. Thus, I can't tell if you ever really heard the other side of the story or not. I know that you heard the other side, but I also know that you made your overly hasty permanent disabling decision without bothering to get my input (much like the Bush Regime's idea of a smooth judicial system).
So I can only wonder if you understood the seriousness of your mistake. It doesn't look like it, but maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully you'll take a moment to comment some day.
Re: You flip-flopped.
Date: 2004-12-11 05:34 pm (UTC)Look...I'll point form it for you:
- I don't think that single comment was worth a banning. I think it was worth a warning. It wasn't even worth a moderation.
- I -do- think you are smart enough and knowledgeable enough to know the association between babykiller/babyeater and the insults that were thrown at Vietnam vets after the war. And therefore you know why DR66 was insulted, at least to some extent.
- However, I think DR66 was a complete fool to be seriously offended by it and his opinion didn't seriously sway anyone on this side.
- If it was entirely up to me, it would have been a warning. The disabling would have been better held for a more serious offense. A disabling -was- coming though because you just wouldn't alter your behaviour. As much as I do like you personally, you were being a real turd a lot of the time and it wasn't appreciated. In the end, it was Illiad's call to disable you. I will always back him up on that because A) it's his site and B) if it wasn't now, then based on what I saw over an extended period of time, it was coming.
- Yep, I started off agreeing with you that it wasn't all that serious and that DR66 was over-reacting. I stand by that. Once the hammer came down, I was the one to wield it. That's my job and I take it very seriously.
Anyway, I'm done with this issue. You can either take it as I say it or not. That's your choice, and $diety knows that no one's ever successfully dissuaded you from a path you are on.
Kickstart
Re: You flip-flopped.
Date: 2004-12-11 06:07 pm (UTC)There was absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Pretending that it was wrong is the only way you justified banning me. It's also proof that you have more than one standard in place.
If you ban someone for a permitted post, what kind of message do you think that sends to everyone?
If I _had_ done a post worthy of a warning (which that one most emphatically was NOT), then a warning would have been a good idea.
If it was moderateable, then you would be within reason to have banned me.
Otherwise, you are being irrational, and a lot of UFies can see that.
-----
Second point - I think you are a big fat liar. Gee, that doesn't sound so nice, does it? It's also not true, but I wanted you to know how it feels. Anyone who can read is "smart enough" to know something if they've read it. Do you know everything I know? If not, why not? You're smart enough and knowledgeable enough!
I'm insulted by your pretension of absolute knowledge of what I should know, and the subsequent action of holding that against me. Wait, I'm not insulted. I'm just disgusted. I thought you had learned not to assume everyone knows the same things by now.
Also, I'm still dumbfounded that you think comparing apples to oranges is valid. DR66 was not in Viet Nam. Viet Nam vets were not accused of eating babies. So how on earth do you get that I was applying a "known" stereotype to him? That's un-fucking-believeable.
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Third point - that _should_ have gone without saying, except that you obviously give (present tense) some credence to his complaints.
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Fourth point - and that's part of why there's not a single standard, as well as part of why UF is becoming more and more idiot friendly. No offense to Illiad or you intended there, but a fact is a fact. DragonLady, for example, should have been stripped of her moderator powers a long time ago. She committed so many violations of her trust that it's not even funny. Letting her resign just shows that you (collective) aren't as interested in fairness as in saving face. And that message is not one you can retract easily.
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Fifth point - you flip-flopped. You publically said you thought the comment was okay, then you publically said you thought it wasn't. Now you are saying both. It's one thing to do your duty, but you have repeatedly insulted me by calling me an asshole and other names. That is not someone reluctantly doing their duty. That's someone taking joy in trying to cause pain.
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Final insult - must be nice to be done with it, especially before listening to rebuttals. I wish I could just ignore all the trouble I've caused and walk away from it without a care. Especially while giving a parting shot about nobody ever convincing you to change your mind. (It's bullshit like that which makes you look less than "professionally" inclined, Kickstart.)
Damn, that's good.
Date: 2004-12-12 02:02 pm (UTC)I had meant it literally.
Date: 2004-12-13 10:28 am (UTC)Re: You flip-flopped.
Date: 2004-12-13 12:49 am (UTC)I also won't apologize for the fact that no matter what I do in this situation, I come off as the bad guy to one side or another. Fine, I can live with that. Both sides continue to act like stupid children. It's apparently getting more stupid the further this drags on so I'm just about to leave it, and visits to your blog, completely. It's not worth the compounded stress.
For what it's worth (apparently nothing in your opinion, apparently), really the only reason you were kept on the board as long as you were was by my intervention and advocacy. Looking back now (see, changing my mind, as is my wont), I think I might have made a mistake in trying to keep you from making the board a worse place and continuing your presence there. I might (*gasp*) even be wrong in my pissed-off feelings at this moment and reconsider that, but I doubt it. In my own mind, I think it's quite telling that even after you're permanently disabled I'm expending effort here. I don't give a flying fuck about 'saving face' in this situation. Feel free to misjudge me and my intentions and keep your unchanging opinions.
Further, you don't have a CLUE what goes on in the background of the board and how much talk we had about disablings. Suffice it to say that permanent disablings will be much rarer than they've ever been, in favour of short term corrections. I have little doubt at this point you will continue to fear-monger on this regard however, so my announcing this will likely be pointless.
So, seeya. Or not.
Kickstart
Rebuttal, Part I
Date: 2004-12-13 11:10 am (UTC)And trying to get you to debate it is almost like pulling teeth.
Yeah, that's putting it mildly. Still, those nice links should make it easy to refresh your memory in just a few seconds of reading.
But you won't apologize because your snap decision was a bad one? Or do you mean because apologizing for having done a bad thing would be a snap decision? Either way...
That shows you are more worried about appearances than fairness. If you get damned either way, why not try to feel good about the decision you made?
Oh, wait, you do.
You continue to insult me, and you think I am the child? I think that one speaks for itself. But you "left" last time. Now you're back, and leaving again. That's your choice, of course, but I will say that it's just you running away.
You haven't seriously addressed any of my concerns. All you've done is dismiss them and insult me. And that was on purpose. Why is that?
And after a bad decision was made by Illiad (who caved to DR's whining), and a bad job of enforcing it was done by you (to flip-flop and support it as though you were suddenly thoroughly in agreement with it), you want pity?
Though it cost me plenty, I deliberately went easy on you at the time because I knew you were under a lot of stress. In fact, most of the times I've been disabled I exhibited a lot of patience and reasonableness. Totally unlike the other parties in those affairs, given the information they made public.
If you think I was making the board a worse place by challenging insulters and idiots, then you are a fool. If you could show me where I was picking on innocent people, however, I'd cheer you on for disabling me.
Changing your mind is a good thing if done for a good reason. You are doing it merely because I had the audacity to point out your recent bad judgement. I had thought you were growing out of that sort of power trip, but maybe it takes more practice than you've had a chance to do.
Rebuttal, Part II
Date: 2004-12-13 11:10 am (UTC)I doubt that you'd reconsider even if I hadn't pissed you off by pointing out a mistake you hoped would stay buried (even though you brought it all back up yourself by calling me an asshole in your first reply).
It takes effort to insult me in every single post you've made here? Funny, you made it seem so effortless. I pointed you to my main entry on the issue, and you never responded to it. What you did do was to tell me you weren't going to read any more of this. And apparently you expected me to take that as a hopeful sign.
My opinions will change as soon as you show any evidence for them. Insulting me repeatedly is not evidence, though. If you posted on UF the way you do here, you'd have to ban yourself. Maybe, just maybe, you'll think about that.
Yeah, so what? That's because you don't tell us. Still, I've been involved in such discussions myself, so maybe I do have a clue. But I don't tell you about them, so you'll never know.
Hooray, you do listen to my suggestions! Or else you listen after others make the same ones. This one has been a long time overdue, but better late than never.
Fuck you, too, sweetums. I haven't been "fear-mongering". I've been complaining and presenting my side of things, which it seems you have been ignorant of. Since you call it "fear-mongering", it seems you are willfully ignorant.
I am fed up with your juvenile insults delivered as though you were the adult. You are going to have to be a lot older than Slamlander before you can think to talk down to me without getting justly laughed at. He, on the other hand, will never be that old. The ass just will not grow up. (No, that's not irony, despite what you are thinking.)
A couple of thoughts...
Date: 2004-12-11 09:53 pm (UTC)Are you that naive? It has become quite the debate tactic: push, push, push, until someone fights back, and then you can be righteously indignant and insulted, email the mods and get them warned/disabled/banned. That tactic played out today on the board here.
That little thread is also quite the indicator of how care-beary the board has become. Would this plea have even crossed anyone's mind a year ago? The threat of disablement is very real in a number of people's minds. There has been a pre-emptive chilling on the board.
However, I think DR66 was a complete fool to be seriously offended by it and his opinion didn't seriously sway anyone on this side.
DR66 certainly doesn't believe that, and given the portions of Illiad's and his communications posted in DR's LiveJournal, it certainly sounds like he had quite the impact on the decision. Hope Illiad enjoys the respect he's earned from DR, because it took a hit from a number of others.
And apologies to Naruki for jumping in....
No need.
Date: 2004-12-12 07:36 am (UTC)